Still no updated FORSAKER?!

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Razzelmire	Still no updated FORSAKER?!	Lead	[-]
Posts: 13 (01/20/07 16:50:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None I am highly surprised WotC still hasn't updated the prestige from Masters of the Wild, the Forsaker, to 3.5E Any particular reason? I had to do my own conversion and this is what I came up with: Damage Reduction: This remains the same number, however, it becomes damage reduction X/-, where X is the number provided depending on your Forsaker level. For example, a 2nd-level Forsaker would have DR 3/-, and a 4th-level would have DR 5/- and so on. Also, I allowed it to stack with any other damage reduction x/- (such as a barbarian's DR). Natural Weapons: I have updated this in my games to allow Forsakers to bypass any supernatural damage reduction, but not natural ones. In other words, they can byass DR/magic, evil, good, lawful, chaotic. They can bypass epic once they reach 11th-level Forsaker. (which can only happen when they are epic-level). However, they still need a weapon of the appropriate material to bypass DR/silver, adamantine, and cold iron. And that's pretty much it. I was thinking of also pumping their skill points to 4 instead of 2 (since they have a lot of class skills) but I decided not to, for now. What do you guys thinks and what have you done to update the Forsaker for your games?
ShadoStahker	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#1	[-]
Posts: 938 (01/20/07 17:10:50) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Reasoning for not updating Races of the Wild material to 3.5e? It already is 3.5e. It was published in 2005. All material should be fully 3.5 material. But I can't find the Forsaker in there. Do you mean Masters of the Wild?
Razzelmire	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#2	[-]
Posts: 13 (01/20/07 19:16:26) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Holy crap, yes, I meant MASTERS. LMAO Sorry.
Aelryinth	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#3	[-]
Posts: 401 (01/22/07 15:23:18) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	As a class, the Forsaker does not work. The existence of magic items is fuel to his class abilities. In other words, without the items he is promised to destroy, he cannot use his powers. It is best used as a template like the Vow of Poverty, giving scaling benefits by level as he eschews magic items. And yes, the Vow and Forsaker are contradictory. the Vow, like all Exalted feats, is a supernatural feat, i.e. magical. ===Aelryinth
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#4	[-]
Posts: 2372 (01/30/07 10:54:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I agree with Aelryinth; the class does not work for me at all as a PC, except maybe to have an excuse to increase NPC wealth while not breaking the wealth guidelines to give out as treasure...because some of it's gonna get smashed. Forsaker, like IMO MANY of the PrCs in the 3.0 splatbooks, might work as an NPC class, altho even there I find it rather dubious, but it fails on many levels for me, as a PC class. If you buy that, then...why update it? Even if you don't completely buy it...if it feels mostly reasonable to you, then it's clear the class is highly marginalized. They are not gonna update every piece of marginal material they ever published. I also despise Vow of Poverty, because I violently detest the notion that "oh, I won't use magic...so I get magical benefits." WHY?????????????? It makes absolutely NO!!! sense outside the "we need our PCs able to do this" view. Not everyone does, tho...for them, the template idea is, IMO, clearly better than the PrC.
pvrhye	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#5	[-]
Posts: 69 (08/24/07 20:30:35) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It's also a bit of a relic with the changes to the way that DR works in 3.5. I think the way his DR scales was meant to help break damage reduction.
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#6	[-]
Posts: 2372 (08/27/07 20:29:04) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	At this point, it's totally dead, unless it's been included in 3.5 products already scheduled. You'll have to wait for 4E, and given it's a PrC, and an oddball one...we're looking at 2009 at best for a 4E re-interpretation, and more likely, 2010, IF at all. Personally, I can't ever recall a great deal of positive buzz about forsaker, and I do recall some negative feedback...so I doubt it'll be re-interpreted.
Fwib	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#7	[-]
Posts: 44 (08/28/07 07:54:01) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	"Tiburon: I also despise Vow of Poverty, because I violently detest the notion that "oh, I won't use magic...so I get magical benefits." WHY?????????????? It makes absolutely NO!!! sense outside the "we need our PCs able to do this" view. Not everyone does, tho...for them, the template idea is, IMO, clearly better than the PrC." The point of Vow of Poverty is not that you will not use magic, it is that you will own nothing of value. You can be a high-powered spellcaster and still have a Vow of Poverty. Admittedly, the effect is that you give up your magic items and get magic-item-replacing bonuses back - but it would be impossible to play a character with no posessions otherwise.
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#8	[-]
Posts: 2372 (08/28/07 12:32:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	You're right; I was thinking of magical toys, not spellcasting. Admittedly, the effect is that you give up your magic items and get magic-item-replacing bonuses back - but it would be impossible to play a character with no posessions otherwise. And...your point is? Is there some reason why such a character must be made playable? I reject that. WHY should the rules be bent over backwards like this? Damn straight..., IMO, if you want to be idiotic enough to not own anything of any notable value, THEN try to go out and slay dragons, you deserve to die. The concept of getting that much power...this is an INSANE amount of bonuses...for a vow is utterly, totally asinine, IMO. It completely, utterly blows my disbelief out of the water...AND it starts begging the question, well DAMN if just saying you'll do without possessions can do THIS much, what ELSE can you do with a vow?
Fwib	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#9	[-]
Posts: 44 (08/28/07 13:38:28) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Vow of Poverty isn't all that great. It does less for you than you could do with your wealth-by-level with items. I don't say that all concepts must be made playable, but the 'holy man with no possessions yet who packs serious spiritual power' is a large enough clich that a lot of people might want to play it - if only to Replicate Weird Al's 'Ghandi II'
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#10	[-]
Posts: 2372 (08/29/07 07:21:56) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Vow of Poverty isn't all that great. It does less for you than you could do with your wealth-by-level with items. Not the point. Look at what it DOES give, in absolute terms, not by comparison to what a PC's gear is giving. Those bonuses are obscenely high. I don't say that all concepts must be made playable, but the 'holy man with no possessions yet who packs serious spiritual power' is a large enough clich that a lot of people might want to play it - if only to Replicate Weird Al's 'Ghandi II' Fine, he's a caster. That's not justification for an insane power boost, considered ONLY as a function of the improvement of the individual's effectiveness relative to what his base abilities would be, for something so (relatively) trivial. It's not the game mechanics of VoP for a PC that I object to; it's the world-related issues.
Fwib	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#11	[-]
Posts: 44 (08/29/07 10:38:57) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Not the point. Look at what it DOES give, in absolute terms, not by comparison to what a PC's gear is giving. Those bonuses are obscenely high. When judging if things are worthwhile, you must include the costs in your consideration. In this case, the cost 'can't own any valuable stuff' usually exceeds the benefits of 'get some nice bonuses and a bunch of weak Exalted feats' The only time the benefits may be more than the costs is when you're playing with a GM who does not give you access to many magic items - in which case, he probably won't let you take VoP, either.
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#12	[-]
Posts: 2372 (08/30/07 10:00:52) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When judging if things are worthwhile, you must include the costs in your consideration. In this case, the cost 'can't own any valuable stuff' usually exceeds the benefits of 'get some nice bonuses and a bunch of weak Exalted feats' That is only true when analyzing for balance, as a PC ability. I'm not talking about that. I'm strictly talking about what it gives, on its own. Is the action that you've taken justify some Power granting you this much? IMO, no. You're looking at it from the inside, in how it affects a PC; I'm looking at it from the outside. That's where it makes no sense. Even looking at it from the inside: if you give an NPC a VoP, the benefits from VoP will greatly outweigh the benefits he'd get from his NPC-level gear. I detest one-sided abilities...anything where a PC gets excessive advantage over an NPC or vice versa, or (as with Disjunction as written) an NPC can do something because he won't care about the consequence, but the PC would be hurting himself. That's also why I have always hated Forsaker, because it's ALL about the latter aspect...a party Forsaker hoses the party when he destroys magic items (or forces the DM to make, IMO, TERRIBLE adjustments to treasure to compensate), and an NPC Forsaker will LOVE to do that...of course, also hosing the party and forcing some kind of treasure adjustment.
MindWandererB	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#13	[-]
Posts: 884 (08/30/07 11:24:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Then, as DM, you don't give the NPC the feat. Simple enough. (And you didn't even mention giving it to monsters--a gold dragon with VoP would be just plain revolting.) Balance is balance, and if you think it's a problem, you don't use it. You're right: Disjunction, Improved Sunder, Antimagic Field, and many more abilities are a whole lot better for NPCs than PCs. But it's the DM's job to use them appropriately.
Fwib	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#14	[-]
Posts: 44 (09/03/07 02:00:48) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	When judging if things are worthwhile, you must include the costs in your consideration. In this case, the cost 'can't own any valuable stuff' usually exceeds the benefits of 'get some nice bonuses and a bunch of weak Exalted feats' That is only true when analyzing for balance, as a PC ability. I'm not talking about that. I'm strictly talking about what it gives, on its own. Is the action that you've taken justify some Power granting you this much? IMO, no. You're looking at it from the inside, in how it affects a PC; I'm looking at it from the outside. That's where it makes no sense. OK, you say that VoP is wrong because it gives you a lot of stuff, and the opportunity cost (no owning valuable stuff) is irrelevant to that, and the roleplaying/background effects (I am a really holy person, yadda yadda) are also irrelevant? By that argument, virtually all of magic ought also to be banned, on the basis that it too gives you something for nothing (magic for hand-waving and chanting) and the other costs are all out-of-game, like the years of mystic holiness ('oh yeah, back before the campaign started, my character studied arcane mysteries for 30 years...') ...and swording, skill-use, healing and most other stuff - if you ignore the opportunity costs, then absolutely everything is immediately uber.
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#15	[-]
Posts: 2372 (09/03/07 10:10:58) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Then, as DM, you don't give the NPC the feat. Simple enough. (And you didn't even mention giving it to monsters--a gold dragon with VoP would be just plain revolting.) Balance is balance, and if you think it's a problem, you don't use it. You're right: Disjunction, Improved Sunder, Antimagic Field, and many more abilities are a whole lot better for NPCs than PCs. But it's the DM's job to use them appropriately. Balance is NOT the be-all and end-all, and part of balance is that it should be fair to both sides anyway. Disjunction has been a major beef for a long time, in its unfairness. Sunder's also gotten its share of complaints for the same reason. And it is simply very BAD rules creation to do what you're suggesting. "OK, Mr. NPC Monk, you have the perfect personality and motives for VoP...but I can't give it to you." "OK, Mr. Cleric of Ilmater...sorry, you're out too, even tho your god almost implies this." You're forcing me to contort the world's events and NPCs, and I absolutely detest that. OK, you say that VoP is wrong because it gives you a lot of stuff, and the opportunity cost (no owning valuable stuff) is irrelevant to that, and the roleplaying/background effects (I am a really holy person, yadda yadda) are also irrelevant? By that argument, virtually all of magic ought also to be banned, on the basis that it too gives you something for nothing (magic for hand-waving and chanting) and the other costs are all out-of-game, like the years of mystic holiness ('oh yeah, back before the campaign started, my character studied arcane mysteries for 30 years...') ...and swording, skill-use, healing and most other stuff - if you ignore the opportunity costs, then absolutely everything is immediately uber. This shows such a total non-understanding of the points involved as to be almost not worth addressing. The first point: it's relevant when we start considering the balance factors with respect to a PC. I'm rejecting VoP BEFORE that point is ever reached, on other factors. The second point: magic is fair. NPCs can be spellcasters, and they get exactly the same relative costs and benefits. The third point is the same. Your thinking is completely in the box that is "the PCs, and ONLY the PCs, are relevant." Mine lies well outside that box. I'm considering the WHY and HOW behind things, and how these assumptions impact the world within the logic of the system. That's where VoP breaks down.
MindWandererB	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#16	[-]
Posts: 884 (09/03/07 11:04:09) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Monks and cloistered clerics are some of the few characters for which VoP is even a worthwhile consideration. I'd give it to them without hesitation. But what about giving it to, say, a unicorn (e.g. the Celestial Charger)? Or a dragon? PCs, and most NPCs, are assumed to operate with gear. Many monsters, even the ridiculously weathly dragons, are not. But the balance issue goes beyond that. PCs and monsters are different. Period. That's why the 4e monster design philosophy is so different from the 3e one. A monster "gnome" will have largely different abilities from a PC "gnome." The needs of the two situations are too different to compare. VoP is one case where NPCs benefit more than PCs. Another example is with per-day abilities--an NPC duergar can be a scary foe, with its 1/day Enlarge and Invisibility, both of which it is almost guaranteed to use in any encounter, but on a PC those are minor advantages. Imagine a class that by level 12 gave you four 8th-level spells per day and nothing else. Awful for PCs, amazing for NPCs. On the flip side, the warlock is a useful class for PCs, but a crappy one for NPCs--when your lifespan is 3 to 5 rounds anyway, at-will abilities are seldom useful compared to spells of a comparable level. Same goes for reserve feats. In fact, the mathematics and dynamics of the game are such that there are very few feats that are equally useful for PCs and NPCs. Power Attack? Great for PCs and for many monsters, that have the attack bonus to spare (depending on how high the PCs have gotten their ACs). Not so useful for NPCs with class levels, because their total attack bonuses and ACs aren't as high as PC's, so they can spare less of their attack to swap for damage. Critical threat ranges and multipliers? PCs usually prefer 19-20 and 18-20 over x3 and x4, because a big crit is often overkill, and thus wasted opportunity. For NPCs, the preference should be the reverse, because it improves the chance of a lucky shot resulting in a kill before the cleric can intervene. And so on.
Fwib	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#17	[-]
Posts: 44 (09/03/07 14:35:40) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This shows such a total non-understanding of the points involved as to be almost not worth addressing. The first point: it's relevant when we start considering the balance factors with respect to a PC. I'm rejecting VoP BEFORE that point is ever reached, on other factors. The second point: magic is fair. NPCs can be spellcasters, and they get exactly the same relative costs and benefits. The third point is the same. Your thinking is completely in the box that is "the PCs, and ONLY the PCs, are relevant." Mine lies well outside that box. I'm considering the WHY and HOW behind things, and how these assumptions impact the world within the logic of the system. That's where VoP breaks down. What? You said you rejected VoP because of what it gives. Clerics and Wizards can replicate or improve upon the benefits of VoP with their spells - and yet you say spellcasters are fine. Please clarify what it is that you object to about VoP, if it is not 'I don't like numbers that size in feats'
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#18	[-]
Posts: 2372 (09/04/07 09:18:25) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Yes. I reject VoP for what it gives. I don't believe I qualified that by adding "to a PC." Simply for saying "ok, I renounce all wealth" some Power somewhere finds you so seriously favorable that He/She/It grants you the enormous benefits? That is not even slightly credible to me. The point that the benefits are less than what you can get from normal-level equipment isn't important; they're simply massive, and they're simply not justified by what you had to do to get them, and the minimal things you have to do to keep them. Look, by comparison, at stuff like Weapons of Legacy. In order to unlock the full legacy abilities of the high-level items, there are multiple quests needed. For a vow of any type to give serious benefits, IMO, some kind of serious show of dedication is needed...and just "staying poor" doesn't cut it.
Fwib	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#19	[-]
Posts: 44 (09/04/07 11:30:49) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	So you object to the idea that devoting your life to an ideal of poverty and goodness could grant you power, but are fine with the idea that devoting your life to some other ideal can grant you power (being a cleric) - or that devoting much of your life to unlocking the secrets of reality and then being able to chant a few words and wave your fingers for power - etc etc. If the point of D&D was to be credible, it wouldn't have all that magic, or most of the monsters. Make your mind up! Didn't you already declare that the cost of an ability was irrelevant? If that is what you think, then the costs of Weapons of Legacy are irrelevant.
Tiburon Silverflame	Re: Still no updated FORSAKER?!	#20	[-]
Posts: 2372 (09/04/07 18:12:46) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Devoting your life CAN grant power...but the amount they're giving for the level of devotion they're calling for, is totally disproportionate. And D&D should be credible on its terms. You start with assumptions such as magic does exist. We're not trying to say it's credible based on our reality. Weapons of Legacy not ONLY have costs in mechanical terms, they also have the quests to fully unlock the items' potential. THAT is why they work for me in ways VoP does not.

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